Less than a decade ago, comedian Louis C.K. was at the height of his fame: a beloved, misanthropic performer with a hit TV show.
On Nov. 9, 2017, the New York Times ran a story that featured five women accusing him of masturbating in front of them. One source claimed that he did this while she spoke with him via phone.
Although rumors about this behavior had been circulating within parts of the comedy world for years, the onset of the #MeToo movement and allegations from comedian Jen Kirkman led journalists to take a serious look at the story.
In response to the Times’ article, Louis C.K. issued a statement of his own, writing, "These stories are true. The power I had over these women is that they admired me, and I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions, and I've tried to learn from them."
Yet, months later, Louis C.K. returned to the stage with new material that downplayed the allegations. He's sold out Madison Square Garden. In 2022, he won a Grammy for Best Comedy Album, and his path called into question what being canceled even means for someone as famous and influential as Louis C.K.
A new documentary, “Sorry/Not Sorry,” produced by the Times dives into this story and speaks with some of CK's accusers. It's now available to stream.
On a recent episode of "All of It," Directors Caroline Suh and Cara Mones talked to Kousha Navidar about comedy, cancel culture, men behaving badly and more. Below is an edited version of their conversation.
Caroline, let's start with you. This story was in the news a lot a few years ago. Why did you want to make a documentary about it now?
Caroline Suh: I was a big Louis C.K. fan and followed all of his work. When the article came out, to be completely candid, my reaction was, “Is this so bad?” I had a sense that I was on the wrong side of things by thinking that, and I really wanted to have a conversation about what had happened, what it meant, and to try and understand how you navigate these issues with an artist who you're a fan of.
As time went on, my feelings about it evolved as we were making the film. As I began to reach out to women who were in the article, I realized that, really, I was asking the wrong questions and training my focus onto Louis C.K. was really not what I should have been thinking about. Really, I was more interested in what happened to people for speaking up.
The conversation for you became much more about giving voice to the victims.
Suh: Yes. Everyone working on the film, we had a lot of debates about how to think about these issues. I think for me as a Gen Xer, my focus was different than the focus of younger people who had a less retrograde way of thinking about it than I did. Because when I came up, this was all on the spectrum of normal-ish behavior, even though outrageous. That's how I looked at it until I really dove into the story.
Cara, was it difficult finding subjects willing to speak with you on the record?
Cara Mones: So much of that work was done by our incredible producing team, who really worked to build trust with the people who did speak in the film.
I think that we were surprised by how many people didn't want to speak in this film. This is a hard thing to talk about. It’s understandable that for a lot of people, there isn't a lot to gain to speak about this issue.
Caroline, how would you describe Louis C.K.’s comedy and his public image before the accusations went public?
Suh: He was known as someone who was very insightful and brutally honest about his own foibles and about human nature. I think people liked his humor about his children and thought that that was new, the complete honesty about the difficulties of being a parent.
He also seemed to be on a progressive side of things with his comedy. It seemed like he was in on the joke and understood that when he talked about various problematic behavior by men, that he was talking about it as someone who knew that it was wrong. That really has changed over time, I think, since the article and then everything that happened after.
I want to play a little bit from one of Louis' stand-up specials. This is when he talks about how dangerous men are to women. Let's listen.
Louis C.K.: A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised. [Laughter] And the whole species’ existence counts on them doing it. How do women still go out with guys when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We're the No. 1 threat to women. Globally and historically, we're the No. 1 cause of injury and mayhem to women. We're the worst thing that ever happens to them. That's true.
Cara, Louis is a smart guy. Do you think he really didn't see the irony that he was behaving exactly like the guys he was just making fun of in that clip?
Mones: It's hard to know what Louis is really thinking. I think that we tried to stay away from speculating about what was going through his mind. For fans, I think that it is striking to see how he speaks about what had happened now in his stand-up.
I think that we saw in the statement in the New York Times that he acknowledged that these stories are true. These aren't allegations. He has acknowledged that these are true. Then to see how he speaks about it in his stand-up now, where he talks about it as a kink or as if the women had said 'yes,' I think is surprising and I think disappointing for a lot of fans who are used to him being so honest about human behavior and his own shortcomings.
Louis was very, very popular before the confirmed allegations broke and still continues to be, obviously. Why do you think his comedy appealed to so many people?
Mones: I think he was giving voice to some things that people were feeling but didn't know how to say out loud. I think that, for me, I hadn't been a fan before, so it was interesting to learn why people were so attached to Louis and to see his jokes about raising young kids. I think that you can see there are some horrible things that you might think but not want to say out loud. I think people did become attached to him in a unique way.
You also spoke with comedian Jen Kirkman about her experience with Louis C.K. What did she tell you about what happened between her and Louis?
Suh: She talked about him in various workplace situations, what she felt and what, in hindsight, seemed like workplace situations [in which] he had made sexual advances toward her. One was at a bar, in a lounge, and then one was at a comedy club. I think these are areas in which a lot of people might say, "That's not technically a workplace." It's hard for people to see those places as workplaces, but in comedy, those are stand-ins for what we might consider a usual office. What she describes is behavior that didn't leave her crying in a bathroom, but that made working and going through her career harder than it needed to be.
How did she decide whether or not to come forward with her story?
Suh: I think she was just fed up. I think she was on a tour in Australia and she had gotten a lot of flack for her comedy, which did have sexual content in it. I think she had gotten criticized for that, so one late night she went on her podcast and just ranted about how she was getting so much criticism, but there are guys in comedy who are out there actually doing the things and not just making jokes about them.
That set off a whole domino effect of her being linked to Louis in the news. Even though she didn't say his name, I think that's when some of the open secret started.
This behavior is a symptom of a larger problem in the industry. Can you talk to that a little bit?
Mones: Comedy is a difficult industry to be successful in, and I think that it's a difficult industry to be a woman in. I do think that there is a whisper network of, “Try and stay away from this person, you don't want to be alone with that person.”
That’s common in a lot of industries. I think that through hearing the stories of the comedians in our film, it became clear just there's so much at stake when you're trying to be successful.
I think it was disappointing to some of the female comedians how little was done when these rumors were growing. That so many people knew about these rumors, but so few people were wanting to speak out or speak up for someone because people want to work and they want to get jobs, and when Louis and his team of people are very powerful and hiring lots of people. I think it takes a lot for people to feel like they want to stick their neck out for somebody else, and I think that that can feel disappointing.
Someone who admits that he was complicit in this was Michael Schur, who hired Louis on his show “Parks and Recreation.” He talks quite honestly in the documentary.
Mones: Mike talks in his interview about how he had heard the rumors, but he didn't know if they were true. He didn't think that it was his problem, is what he says. I really appreciate that interview because I think that it's a stand in for what I think a lot of us have probably experienced in our lives where we hear a rumor, but we don't know if it's true or there are no names attached to it.
At the time, it doesn't feel like it's our place to do anything. I think for him, he's making a show and he just decided it wasn't his problem. I think it's striking later in his interview in the film where he says he realizes, "If it's not my problem, then whose problem is it?” I think that that's something that's very relatable.
Louis did not deny the allegations. He came out after the article was published and said, "These stories are true." He has made a comeback. There's this whole part of him coming back to the Comedy Cellar about 10 months, I believe, after the allegations. Caroline, what did the owner of the Comedy Cellar tell you about why he decided to allow Louis C.K. to come back to doing stand-up there?
Suh: [Owner] Noam [Dworman] said that he's not the arbiter. He shouldn't be the gatekeeper and decide — If people want to see a comedian, then who should he be to stand in the way? That was a surprise set at the Comedy Cellar. Noam actually brings up a lot of interesting questions, which he also brings up in an episode of “The Daily,” The New York Times’ podcast, in which he says, "Who's supposed to employ these people? Are they supposed to become wards of the state or are they never allowed to ply their trade again?"
At the time, at the beginning of the film, I thought those questions were really interesting, but then I started to worry less about what happens to all these guys and more about what happens to the women who come forward and then get tons of hate as a result.
Can you describe a little bit about the impact that these women have faced since then? We go through it in the documentary.
Suh: Jen, for instance, she's a very successful comedian. There came to be a point when she would be promoting one of her books or specials that all people would talk to her about was Louis, and so she stopped doing promotion, which is obviously not good if you're a working comedian trying to get your work out there. Then Abby and Megan just stepped away.
I think Abby, who was a woman who he masturbated on the phone with, she says she went into hiding – not because what he did was so devastating, but it was a pile-on of a bunch of negative things. She got so much hate for just saying the story of what happened to her.
Then Dave Chappelle picked up that story and made it a regular part of his comedy specials, for which he also won a Grammy. Anyone who says that they're doing it for their own benefit is completely wrong. It's really service because they really have nothing but negative responses usually when they come forward.
Some people have an idea of Louis C.K. being "canceled." How true do you think that is?
Mones: I think that his career is definitely different now, the platforms that are available to him have changed. As you see in the film, he's won Grammys, he's sold out at MSG. He's still very successful and he still has a fan base that is there for him.
Yes. I think this situation brought up the messy question of: What do we do with men who have behaved badly, especially if what they did may not seem like such a big deal to some people? What did the comedians you spoke to have to say about that?
Mones: I think that the comedians in the film really helped me understand and helped the viewers understand that we focus so much on these men and what should happen to them or not happen to them, but what about all the other people who haven't had a chance? That's something that Jen Kirkman says towards the end of the film. When you see all these people coming back, and what about everyone else who hasn't had a chance? I think that it raises questions around why we spend so much time focusing on the accused and we don't think about the people who are impacted by their actions.
Caroline, for people who think they might have their mind made up about the Louis C.K. situation, one way or the other, how do you hope “Sorry/Not Sorry” might maybe challenge them in some way?
Suh: That was always the purpose of the film, that people would watch it and then go ask a lot of questions and have conversations about it and think about their own lives. We don't want to tell people what they should and should not consume, but I think it's worth thinking about.
We found making the film to be really helpful in terms of being aware of what we're consuming and who's making it. I think it deserves some thought. We hope that it just makes people walk away with a better understanding and asking themselves to take a harder look.
