Since opening in 1982, The Comedy Cellar has become one of the premiere comedy clubs in New York City, the kind of place you could stop by on a random Thursday night and catch a set by the likes of Dave Chappelle, Colin Quinn, Amy Schumer, Marc Maron, Chris Rock and every other comedy legend. But like so many other venues around the city, it's been shut down because of the pandemic since March.
We spoke to owner Noam Dworman about what this year has been like for Comedy Cellar, the questionable choices other venues have made, and the future of the comedy industry post-pandemic.
My impression is that besides the occasional live stream show, Comedy Cellar has been fully shut down since March, is that right? Comedy Cellar has been fully shut down since March, yeah. [Sister restaurant] The Olive Tree was open for awhile at 25% capacity and there were a lot of comedians hanging out there, but it's closed now and The Comedy Cellar below [has been] closed all along.
When did you close? Was it because the state required it or did you choose to close before then? We closed prior to the state requiring us to. I wanted to close...I was very early to the whole COVID thing, I bought extra refrigerators for my house, I pulled my kids out of school maybe three weeks early. They were saying I was a fearmonger. I was very early to the notion that this was serious. But when I was trying to close the business down early, our attorneys and our accountants were telling us that we couldn't because there are all sorts of rules and hoops that you had to jump through to be able to close a business down without having liabilities.
And so finally, I just did it like the week before the state closed [things] down, but it was crazy the answers I was getting. And I also wanted to be able to take temperatures of my employees. I wasn't allowed to do that. I said, "Well, how about if I just get a bunch of thermometers and leave the for themselves and they can do it voluntarily?" "No, you're not allowed to do that." You know? So there was nothing I could do. I wasn't allowed to close, and you weren't allowed to ask your employees to go through any precautionary measures, medically, to make sure that they were safe because of all the HIPAA rules, whatever it is. So, I understand the laws weren't written with a pandemic in mind, but they do need to be relooked at.
What were your initial thoughts about everything—did you think this was going to be a brief closure? I thought it was going to be longer than most people thought, but I thought by now we would be opening. I did. I'm not shocked that we're closed... but I somehow thought that by the fall that we would be moving towards 50% capacity. It didn't turn out that way.
If they had been more serious about getting everybody to wear masks, but the government, for whatever reason...maybe they are now, but when it mattered, they wouldn't even treat not wearing a mask as serious as urinating on the street. They wouldn't issue summonses, they wouldn't punish anybody. They basically left it up to the honor system, as long as you're six feet away. So what happens is that people kind of just hold the mask. And as soon as they see a cop, they put it on. And then as soon as nobody's looking, they take it off again or they wear it with their nose out. You're around the city, you see what I'm talking about. It was not a serious public health enforcement of something that held a lot of lives in the balance, in my opinion.
How many employees did the Comedy Cellar have before the shutdown? Over a hundred.
So what has the situation been? Have you had to lay people off? Well, everybody's getting unemployment for a while. They were getting that extra unemployment, which was very helpful. I haven't laid anybody off. I have a couple of people who are actually working, like caretakers and stuff like that. And one person in the office. I know that through attrition, I'm going to end up having lost some employees, but I'm hoping that when we open again I'll be able to get 80% of them back. I'm really hoping.
Have any of them gotten sick? Yeah, quite a few people have been sick, both employees and comedians. I have no professional contacts who have died. I have other contacts, personal relationships where people have died, but no one who worked for me and to my knowledge, none of the comedians have died. But some of them were very sick. I mean, very sick.
Did you get any PPP? And if you did, how long did that last? Yeah, we did get it. It's about to run out now. The government has let us down, my God. State, local, federal. It's the one time in my life where government action really was necessary. It wasn't like lowering taxes, raising taxes, some policy or some long-term good. It's like we had an urgent situation and they just wouldn't do it. And businesses to my left and my right are just going broke. People's lives, bankruptcy. And this kind of perverse incentives of the presidential election. It was clear Pelosi didn't want to give Trump a victory. It aggravates me, actually, when I think about it. They had a PPP program, which was imperfect because there were certain requirements of it, which were not realistic. Like you had to bring back 75% of your employees, you had to spend it all by a certain date for it to be forgivable. But these were all correctable, post-facto. They could extend the date. After they saw the reality of what was required, they could easily go back and change the strings attached to that money.
But at least people were getting money. At least businesses were kept afloat, and employees were getting that extra money. And then that money ran out and rather than just extending it, which would have been the simplest thing in the world, they get into this big, long, protracted, don't let any crisis go to waste kind of thing. And don't let this side have a victory. And who knows what it is, but you do get the very clear...if you don't get this impression, then you're extremely naive. They really don't give a shit about everyday people. Not the Republicans, not the Democrats. This is a political football, and there was nothing stopping them from simply extending that program to help people through the end of the summer and right now. Nothing.
How do you feel about how the state and city have handled things? And what do you think about the controversy with the state's entertainment guidelines? Do you think it's been too harsh or has it been appropriate that they have been on the conservative side in terms of indoor entertainment and those sorts of things? I break with my industry on this. I am really not upset with the strictness of the regulations. I know it will be tempting to Monday morning quarterback it, if it turns out that this was overkill or that was overkill. But I think that the governor, especially after he made so many bad calls early on, was right to be extremely cautious and err on the side of excessive caution.
They got that side right, but then they didn't provide the other side, which is, "Okay, close everybody down. And then at the same time, provide them with some money to keep them open." To keep them alive. Put everybody into an induced coma, that's fine. But then don't unplug the respirator. You've got to give them a respirator. You have to. And they didn't do that. It's inexcusable. Dangerfield's went out of business. The Creek & The Cave went out of business. Restaurants going out of business. None of this had to happen. These were healthy businesses that could have been kept alive. And it's not just the businesses, it's their employees.
I'm surprised you're not in favor of the Save Our Stages act? There's no reason that the arts should get any special dispensation here. Every business and every citizen should be treated the same. I mean, if there was ever a time for a communist approach, it's now. To each according to need. And the stages need their business like any other business. But I'm sure there are other business that are far less, I don't know, aesthetically-oriented who are also devastated by this situation. And they should get help exactly the same as a small theater should. I don't see why me, as a comedy club, should be treated any different than a guy selling hotdogs on the street. We're all citizens, and we're all in the same boat, and the government should help everybody who needs the help right now. Because as opposed to any other time in our lifetime, they can't help themselves. They're being shut down. The government's ordered them to shut down.
Right. But in theory, the idea that things like comedy venues, music venues, indoor dining, these are being shut down, such that they can't do anything. The guy with the hot dog stand can still sell hot dogs on the street— Maybe he can, maybe he can't. Maybe there's nobody walking around the streets at certain times. I'm just saying that...restaurants are not stages, right? I wish I could think off the top of my head of other businesses. There were beauty salons that were closed for a while and—
Right, but beauty salons are open again. They're open right now. Listen, there's two steps to it. One is, if they're open, maybe they don't need the help. But the other reality is that like they let restaurants open at 25% capacity. Most restaurants lose more money at 25%, they prefer to be closed. There's some restaurants that have big outdoor cafes. In the summertime, they were actually able to make a living. And 25% seating indoors, all of a sudden, was like a little gravy to that. But most restaurants, as anybody knows, if you open a restaurant and you don't do better than 25% business, you'll lose millions of dollars. Nobody's making a living on 25% capacity, the economies of rent and bills don't work on 25% business. And by the way, it's not even 25% business, because you only do that—most restaurants do 25% capacity all the time, it's just the dinner hour that you hope to be busy. But I'm just saying, they didn't do anybody any favor when they left them open at 25%.
Most people probably ended up losing more money. But they kind of maybe used it as an excuse, like, "Okay, the restaurants are open now. So maybe they don't need as much help." I'm sure I lost more money opened than closed. I would presume. It's hard to unwind it.
I think it's interesting you have this perspective because so many of the people in the comedy world and at other venues that I've talked to are saying, "We desperately need extra bail out." Because comedy clubs, in particular, have not legally been allowed to be open in NYC over the last nine months. Right. They don't need extra bail out. They need the same bail out as everyone else.
I'm curious what you think about the comedy clubs that have continued hosting shows during all this. Are you of the opinion that everyone's got to get by however they can, or do you think they've been doing something dangerous? I haven't seen how they're operating them. It's complex because on the one hand, if you're at 25% capacity just like restaurants are allowed to be open at 25% capacity and everybody's wearing masks, and people aren't presuming...people talk less for your comedy show than they do at a meal. It doesn't seem to be increasing the risk. On the other hand is you can definitely operate anything, as we've seen restaurants and bars operating over capacity and irresponsibly, so I don't know, I can't comment on how the other clubs are doing things.
I'm not judging anybody because the government's putting people's backs against the wall. People should understand that as much as they want to criticize other people, most people when faced between their lives going down the drain or opening up, most people would open up. And the government by not being forthcoming with the support that businesses need, is putting people in a Hobson's choice, it's putting people in terrible moral predicaments, where people have to choose between two alternatives. They shouldn't be put in the position to have to choose between salvaging everything they built in their lifetime and hoping that they don't get people sick. They shouldn't have to be in that position. It's terrible. That's why I say the government has let us down just in an unimaginable way.
Looking forward, are you worried about the future for Comedy Cellar? Are you worried about finances? Do you expect to be closed for much of 2021? I'm cautiously optimistic. Frankly, I'm not at death's door. I'll hang in there. And then, hopefully, business will bounce back to something in the neighborhood of what it was. I'm optimistic about everything.
Comedy Cellar is a very successful place. And we've been very, very fortunate and that's a blessing for me, personally. But I know a lot of people, I've had a lot of heartbreaking conversations with people who run businesses, who are in the same kind of week-to-week touch-and-go kind of situation that I was most of my existence, until like the last five years when we really started doing better. Every winter was always touch-and-go—what if there's a snow storm? How are we going to pay the rent? We were always just a little bit ahead of our bills, for 40 years. That's the way most businesses operate. And if this same thing had hit me in 2005... yeah, I'd be bankrupt now, for sure. I'd be gone. And I had these conversations with people who were in that situation and it fills me with such anger at my country, really. It's very upsetting. There's just no excuse for it.
Why is Comedy Cellar in such a better place now? Is it because you've branched out and you've had all these other revenue sources, like the Comedy Central show and podcasts and such...? There's nothing to do with that. First of all, we don't have a television deal anymore. And when we did, it wasn't like any huge source of revenue. Podcasts are no revenue. No, it's just that, to be honest, we saved money. We were able to save some money during good times and we're depleting that money now. I'm not claiming that I'm rich. I'm saying, I'm not going to go broke if this goes on for another five months. I'm not going to be out of business. I'm very, very, very lucky that I can say that because that's out of the norm of my entire existence. It just happened to be that the last couple of years we've been doing very well. Business has been very busy.
And I'm not a profligate spender in my personal life. I'm making do, that's all. I'm not taking vacations and flying around. I'm saying I'm making do. I'm not panicking. I'm okay. And I am very rare, okay? Most businesses, restaurant, my type of business, they don't operate that way. That is not the way a restaurant is. You can see a restaurant packed at dinner time and believe me, that owner needs to finish this week in order to pay his sales tax for the previous quarter. That's the way it always is. Restaurant business is very tough. They operate on a 3 or 5% margin sometimes, and they are not rich. And they're getting killed here. They're getting killed.
And by the way, this goes all the way up and down the chain. There are some huge, rich landlords. But a lot of landlords, most of the landlords I've dealt with in my career, have one building, maybe two buildings. They need the mortgage. They need the rent to pay the mortgage. Many of them make less money than their tenants in terms of their income. And when their tenants can't pay the rent, their lives are affected just like a restaurant's life is affected. People hate landlords, but buildings are businesses, too. [Note: Dworman has previously noted that he owns the building that Comedy Cellar — which his father opened in 1980 — is housed in.]
Is there anything else you want to add about what you think might happen in 2021, for the city or for the comedy world? I think that it's going to be okay. After the Spanish flu, they had the roaring twenties. It's not exactly answering your question, but actually I think that long-term, the restaurants will be fine. People are not going to stop eating out or going to comedy clubs. That's no more evergreen businesses. I think that it's [how we interact with] other people—for instance, I never want to take a meeting with a professional in Midtown Manhattan again. I don't. Zoom is fine for me to meet with my lawyers, my accountants, and not have to spending $70 in parking and battle crosstown traffic and stuff like that.
There's all sorts of other industries. And then, of course, the property values and the rents, which revolve around those industries. They're actually, I think, going to see a much longer term new reality after this all goes away than the restaurant businesses. I think the restaurant business, if people could just hang in there, if the government would just lend them or give them the money to hang in there for another few months, then they'll be fine. And they'll go back, basically, to where they were. I think other businesses, that's not the case. People are used to a lot of online stuff.
Do you think it'll change the comedy industry at all? No, I don't.
So in about a year or two, it's going to basically go back to normal? Yeah. I think that there are certain realities, which I don't think are going to change. Number one, people like to see live performances. Number two, people like to go out on dates, and go out and have fun, and go out and have drinks. There's no online substitute for any of these things. Performers want to perform. Zoom shows don't work. And I think [there's that] urge to socialize, to say, "Hey, what are we going to do this weekend?" Comedy clubs need to understand that a good part of why people funnel in there is because they're just looking for something to do, and they chose comedy. If they had no comedy club, they'd go somewhere else.
In other words, the first urge is quite often, "Let's do something this weekend. Hey, how about comedy?" "All right." And comedy is a nice alternative. But that human urge to meet up with your friends and go out somewhere and have a shared experience in a live setting and have drinks, and then maybe have a romantic thing afterwards or whatever it is, this is not going away. This is not going to be replaced by Zoom. Meeting with a professional in an office somewhere that takes you an hour there and an hour back, that might change.
